Revenue Builders · 1 Oct 2026 · From the week of 28 September
Why Deals Don't Close: Anne Gary's Framework for Discovery, Champions & Economic Buyers
These are notes on the conversation, checked against its transcript. The episode itself has the full discussion.
In brief
Hosts John McMahon and John Kaplan interview Anne Gary, Managing Director at Force Management and a member of the founding team of MEDDPICC, about why deals stall. The conversation covers discovery and linking features to quantified business impact, metrics, urgency, champions and economic buyers, and proof of value. The central argument is that deals are usually lost earlier than they appear, because rushed discovery leaves the seller without the metrics, champion, budget access and decision criteria needed to close.
For founders
- McMahon said rushing through discovery can leave buyers unwilling to share the metrics needed to build a value case later in the deal.
- Kaplan described agreeing with the buyer up front on how a project's success will be measured, so that the results become proof for the next request for money.
- The speakers said a proof of value should start only after decision criteria are agreed with the economic buyer and the right people are involved.
- McMahon said a deal will not close when the contact is a coach without the power or budget to fund the purchase, and the speakers noted that many people who think they have a champion only have a coach.
- Gary said a seller who relies on one contact is exposed, so the seller should build relationships across the account.
For revenue leaders
- Gary said managers should coach reps on quality metrics rather than activity metrics, and that a useful coaching question is when the leader last made a call in front of their reps so they could see how it is done.
- Gary listed five things to settle before a proof of value: people, process, technology, timing and metrics.
- McMahon said urgency comes from re-anchoring the buyer to a date and the implications they gave earlier, and another speaker added that sellers must quantify the negative consequences of not solving the problem.
- The speakers said a proof of value run without agreed decision criteria opens the evaluation to competitors, and that a proof of value on the wrong products fails to connect to the economic buyer's business problem.
- McMahon said enterprise prospects have hundreds of pains and sellers compete with every salesperson in the account, so they must target pains that need third-party help; Gary said tying the solution to revenue, profitability and risk is how to rise above the noise.
What was said 24, most useful first
Rushing discovery can leave buyers unwilling to share the metrics needed for a value case. Listen
McMahon said that if a seller moves too fast through discovery, the customer may grasp what the product does and then withhold the metrics needed for a compelling ROI or value proposition. He said the buyer does this because they know what the seller is doing to them, which makes it harder to justify price and the purchase later.
“I've seen it where the customers now unwilling to give you the metrics required for you to create a compelling ROI or value proposition because they know what you're doing to them.”
Agreeing with the buyer up front on how success will be measured turns today's metrics into tomorrow's proof points. Listen
Kaplan described a buyer, Neil, who resisted setting success metrics because he thought Kaplan wanted to manage and measure him. Kaplan said he framed the work as putting deposits in the bank together, so the next request for money would rest on a track record of solved problems.
“you're gonna ask for a certain amount of money to solve a certain problem”
Re-anchoring a stalled prospect to a deadline and cost they gave earlier can restore urgency. Listen
McMahon described calling a prospect who had earlier said a problem needed solving by October 31 and reminding him of the implications of that date. He said a five-minute call can become half an hour once the implications are clear, whereas without a stated consequence of not solving the problem the buyer stays with daily issues.
“de laatste keer dat we gesproken hebben, had je me gezegd dat als je deze pain, of deze problemen, in oktober 31”
Before starting a proof of value, a seller should have five things settled: people, process, technology, timing and metrics. Listen
Gary listed these five things and said she does not walk into a proof of value without having all of them nailed down. She said the process needs to cover who the people are, where they go through the process, what technology will be measured, the timing, and the metrics.
“So there's five things i think about in terms oe going into a proof of value.”
Running a proof of value without agreed decision criteria gives competitors an open field to set the scoring. Listen
The speaker said a seller who runs a proof of value without writing the decision criteria in their favour, and confirming them with the economic buyer, leaves competitors an open hunting season. They added that sellers must understand how the buyer will score each vendor, because a competitor may be scored on different terms.
“is het een open huntingseason voor je competitie”
No budget is not the same as no access to funds, so a seller should ask whether the buyer can access funds. Listen
The speaker said having no budget differs from having access to funds, and that the key question is whether the person with the business problem can access funds for a purchase. They said a budget objection can be reframed by tying the solution to revenue, profitability, risk or time to market.
“Nou, je hebt het gezegd, hebben ze accesse voor funds? Dat is verschillend dan hebben ze budget.”
Features only win the deal when they are tied to a quantified business problem the prospect already has. Listen
Gary said many sellers lead with product features and never link them to the business problem they solve. She said reps are proud of their solution and assume its impact is obvious, and that the discovery phase is where that link has to be built.
“Het probleem is dat je weet hoe de features van functies helpen, maar dat betekent niet dat het prospect begint.”
Coaching built on activity metrics misses whether reps reach the right people, so managers should coach on quality metrics. Listen
Gary said managers often base coaching on activity measures such as calls and meetings, which can hide whether reps are reaching the right person. She said managers should base coaching on quality-based metrics instead.
“They have to base this on quality based metrics instead of activity -based metrics.”
Listen to the episode Sales team, hiring & comp Link to this
A sales leader can expose a coaching gap by asking when they last made a call in front of their reps. Listen
Gary described a sales leader focused on call volume metrics who, when asked when he was last on the phone with his reps, deflected by saying he had a remote team. She then asked when he had last made a call in front of them so they could see how it is done. She said leaders have to show good discovery rather than only tell reps what to do.
“Well when's the last times you're on the phone with them?”
Listen to the episode Sales team, hiring & comp Link to this
Reps who research an account thoroughly often lecture the customer about their pain instead of asking questions to uncover it. Listen
Gary said she sees reps do deep research, arrive with the customer's pain points already in mind, and then tell the customer about those problems. She said leaders should listen for this on calls and push reps to ask questions that let the customer describe the pain in their own words.
“they lecture the customer about their pain”
Urgency comes from quantifying the negative consequences of not solving the problem, not only the benefits of solving it. Listen
The speaker said that if the negative consequences of not moving forward are not quantified, the buyer will sit still and get distracted by the next priority. They said the seller's job is to keep asking the customer what it means, and to make the implication to a business outcome, so the buyer creates their own urgency.
“If you don't actually quantify the negative consequences of not moving forward, then you're just going to sit there”
A proof of value that omits the people needed for the decision can drag on without an end. Listen
Gary described a proof of value where the necessary people were not included, so it kept going without a conclusion. She also described two different teams being asked to evaluate the technology separately, which made the results impossible to compare.
“So the proof -of -value was non ending Infinity symbol it just kept going right”
A proof of value built on products technical buyers like, rather than on the economic buyer's business problem, misses. Listen
Gary described a proof of value built around products the technical buyers were most interested in, which did not line up with the biggest business problem the economic buyer was trying to solve. She said this is a discovery failure that carries into the proof of value.
“Demonstrated the wrong products in terms of connecting to the economic buyer business problem.”
A prospect can give a seller four hours for a benchmark while a competitor gets ten hours for the same test. Listen
The speaker described a benchmark where the prospect gave their team four hours while the competitor had ten hours for the same work. They said the metrics had not been agreed before the proof of value, which made the evaluation hard to win fairly.
“De prospect geeft ons vier uur om naar de benchmark te gaan”
Relying on a single contact is risky, and the speaker had not seen a single-threaded deal in years. Listen
The speaker said that if you are single-threaded on one person you are at risk, and that while sellers could once be more single-threaded with an economic buyer, they had not seen single-threaded deals in years.
“single -threaded, je bent op het risico”
A seller should find several champions during the process rather than relying on one. Listen
Gary said a seller should not stop after finding one champion but should find many champions throughout the process, because winning the collective yes in today's larger, more political organizations requires it. Another speaker then added that technical software deals can involve technical and political champions, and that a political champion may not be able to tell the financial metrics story.
“je vindt veel champions door de proces ook”
Champions with power and influence will not stake their reputation on a salesperson they do not yet trust. Listen
The speaker said champions are often smart, politically savvy and reputable in the account, which is why they are valuable, and they will not risk their career on an unproven salesperson. The speaker said trust starts when the seller shows a deep understanding of the use case and the customer's pain and builds a limited cost justification.
“ze gaan niet verblijven hun reputaties en hun carrière op een onprekbare salesperson”
Someone who helps but lacks power or budget is a coach, and a deal depending on a coach will not close. Listen
The speaker said a deal will not close if the contact helping the seller is a coach without the power or budget to push the purchase through. They said this is common, and that many people believe they have a champion when they only have a coach.
“Als mensen denken dat ze een champion hebben, dan hebben ze een coach.”
Some economic buyers will not own the decision and will ask their own technical team to make and justify it. Listen
The speaker recounted a sale from their PTC days in which the economic buyer said he would not make the software decision and would have the engineering department choose instead. They said the buyer wanted the technical champion to stand behind the choice with the business reasons.
“ik ga niet de beslissing maken voor deze software”
Prospects who go silent were often people the seller thought were champions but who lacked real power. Listen
The speaker said many ghosting prospects had identified themselves as champions, had gone up the ladder and been pushed back, and were afraid to say so. The speakers added that prospects may also go quiet because a competitor had a better price or better matched the criteria. They called the common 'we decided not to make a decision' explanation BS, often hiding that the contact could not get money.
“they actually identified themselves as a Champion they went up the ladder little bit and they got smacked around a little bit”
Enterprise prospects have hundreds of pains, so a seller must focus on pains the customer cannot work around or fix without third-party help. Listen
McMahon said sellers compete not only with rivals for dollars but with every salesperson selling into the account. He said a pain the customer can work around or wait on will not get solved, so sellers should focus on pains that require third-party help. Just before this, Gary argued for rising above the noise by tying the solution to revenue, profitability and risk.
“these companies have hundreds of pains”
Sellers can build trust with a prospect by sharing industry insight and trend education that the buyer does not have. Listen
Gary said that because sellers work in their industry and call on many companies, they know a lot about what is happening and can share that insight and trend education, which makes the buyer better informed about what is going on outside their own company. She said buyers who see that value are more willing to go somewhere with the seller.
“it's about providing that insight education trend so they actually are more educated”
An economic buyer will push back on a vendor that tries to run its campaign from the buyer's office without reporting on business outcomes. Listen
The speaker recounted an economic buyer telling a vendor it could not run its campaign from the buyer's office, and that the buyer would take part only if kept informed of progress against the business outcomes being pursued. The speaker said the buyer then told his assistant not to let the vendor back in.
“Were you a company that was going to set up camp in my office and try to run your campaign from my office, it ain't gonna happen.”
Today's metrics are tomorrow's proof points, and being able to prove results was described as the main reason a company grew. Listen
The speaker said all three of them were part of a fast-growing company at PTC, where the number one reason for its growth was being able to prove beyond doubt what it had done. They said the company called these measures metrics internally, which were basically proof points.
“todays metrics are tomorrow's proof points”